1 00:00:11,610 --> 00:00:09,400 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:11,620 with dr. Dean Radin about his new book 3 00:00:17,109 --> 00:00:15,290 super normal science yoga and the 4 00:00:17,859 --> 00:00:17,119 evidence for extraordinary psychic 5 00:00:21,390 --> 00:00:17,869 abilities 6 00:00:23,740 --> 00:00:21,400 these yogic traditions don't point to 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:23,750 super normal powers that's not what 8 00:00:27,130 --> 00:00:25,130 they're about and in fact they go to 9 00:00:28,929 --> 00:00:27,140 great lengths to say hey it's not about 10 00:00:30,999 --> 00:00:28,939 these super normal powers don't worry 11 00:00:33,819 --> 00:00:31,009 about them if we're not willing to 12 00:00:36,639 --> 00:00:33,829 tackle the divine we're kind of playing 13 00:00:40,119 --> 00:00:36,649 a different game but are we playing the 14 00:00:41,740 --> 00:00:40,129 game it's true that the yogic path and 15 00:00:43,650 --> 00:00:41,750 many of these other mystical paths are 16 00:00:47,349 --> 00:00:43,660 basically pointing to enlightenment 17 00:00:49,509 --> 00:00:47,359 enlightenment is so far away from where 18 00:00:52,060 --> 00:00:49,519 science is that it's probably too far a 19 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:52,070 reach for now and it's also true that 20 00:00:56,290 --> 00:00:54,530 these traditions say you're going to 21 00:00:57,700 --> 00:00:56,300 bump into these psychic things and don't 22 00:00:59,349 --> 00:00:57,710 pay attention to them because they're 23 00:01:00,970 --> 00:00:59,359 just yardsticks on the way to something 24 00:01:03,669 --> 00:01:00,980 more interesting well we're in the 25 00:01:06,870 --> 00:01:03,679 modern age now and what science is is 26 00:01:09,670 --> 00:01:06,880 able to do is study not the depths of 27 00:01:11,890 --> 00:01:09,680 enlightenment but we certainly can study 28 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:11,900 the very place where mind and matter 29 00:01:16,390 --> 00:01:14,510 meet it's where the deep subjective and 30 00:01:18,550 --> 00:01:16,400 deep objective meet and that is psychic 31 00:01:19,930 --> 00:01:18,560 phenomena if we're interested in the 32 00:01:22,990 --> 00:01:19,940 nature of consciousness we need to 33 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:23,000 expand it to exactly in the place where 34 00:01:38,109 --> 00:01:24,290 the Yogi's said don't pay much attention 35 00:01:42,050 --> 00:01:40,370 welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore 36 00:01:44,570 --> 00:01:42,060 controversial science with leading 37 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:44,580 researchers thinkers and their critics 38 00:01:49,219 --> 00:01:46,770 I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this 39 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:49,229 episode Dean Radin returns to skip the 40 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:50,930 code to talk about his new book 41 00:01:56,149 --> 00:01:53,250 supernormal when we did the special 42 00:01:58,430 --> 00:01:56,159 200th episode of skeptic oh the guest 43 00:02:01,999 --> 00:01:58,440 that folks said they most wanted to hear 44 00:02:03,830 --> 00:02:02,009 from again was dr. Dean Radin so with 45 00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:03,840 his new book coming out I thought it was 46 00:02:09,350 --> 00:02:06,750 a great opportunity to reconnect dr. 47 00:02:13,820 --> 00:02:09,360 Raiden to all of us on skeptic oh here's 48 00:02:16,580 --> 00:02:13,830 my interview with dr. Dean Radin today 49 00:02:18,610 --> 00:02:16,590 we welcome dr. Dean Radin - skeptic oh 50 00:02:22,070 --> 00:02:18,620 he's here to talk about his new book 51 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:22,080 supernormal science yoga and the 52 00:02:27,229 --> 00:02:24,450 evidence for extraordinary psychic 53 00:02:29,330 --> 00:02:27,239 abilities dr. Raiden of course is chief 54 00:02:32,180 --> 00:02:29,340 scientist at the Institute of noetic 55 00:02:34,070 --> 00:02:32,190 Sciences where he's become one of the 56 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:34,080 world's best-known researchers on 57 00:02:39,020 --> 00:02:36,690 extended human consciousness his two 58 00:02:41,870 --> 00:02:39,030 previous books the conscious universe 59 00:02:44,930 --> 00:02:41,880 and entangled Minds were truly 60 00:02:48,110 --> 00:02:44,940 groundbreaking and provide the 61 00:02:51,289 --> 00:02:48,120 scientific foundation for much of the 62 00:02:53,810 --> 00:02:51,299 current interest there is in this field 63 00:02:55,009 --> 00:02:53,820 dr. Raiden welcome - skeptic oh thanks 64 00:02:57,910 --> 00:02:55,019 so much for joining me 65 00:03:01,880 --> 00:02:57,920 thanks Alex it's a pleasure to be here 66 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:01,890 so a lot of people are very excited 67 00:03:07,940 --> 00:03:04,890 about this new book of yours supernormal 68 00:03:12,740 --> 00:03:07,950 can you start just by telling us briefly 69 00:03:16,009 --> 00:03:12,750 what it's about well one way of getting 70 00:03:18,530 --> 00:03:16,019 into the topic is that you may know that 71 00:03:22,729 --> 00:03:18,540 the Dalai Lama for years now has been 72 00:03:26,390 --> 00:03:22,739 having dialogues with scientists on the 73 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:26,400 relationship between Buddhist ideas and 74 00:03:34,009 --> 00:03:30,810 practice and and science both primarily 75 00:03:36,020 --> 00:03:34,019 physics and the neurosciences and one of 76 00:03:38,569 --> 00:03:36,030 the things that you you see when you 77 00:03:39,860 --> 00:03:38,579 read the transcripts of what goes on in 78 00:03:41,539 --> 00:03:39,870 these meetings and of course they've 79 00:03:45,199 --> 00:03:41,549 spawned a number of popular books as 80 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:45,209 well is that the the Dalai Lama is very 81 00:03:50,809 --> 00:03:48,330 interested in in science and the 82 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:50,819 practice of science of what science is 83 00:03:55,309 --> 00:03:52,890 and he has said many times said if 84 00:03:57,259 --> 00:03:55,319 science demonstrates that something 85 00:03:59,660 --> 00:03:57,269 about Buddhist practice or beliefs are 86 00:04:01,490 --> 00:03:59,670 incorrect that they'll change their 87 00:04:05,449 --> 00:04:01,500 beliefs and practices they're they're 88 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:05,459 after the truth so so that's laudable 89 00:04:10,190 --> 00:04:08,310 and and you would hope then that this 90 00:04:13,069 --> 00:04:10,200 the same would be true on the scientific 91 00:04:14,839 --> 00:04:13,079 side that if some scientific assumptions 92 00:04:16,580 --> 00:04:14,849 turn out not to be completely correct 93 00:04:19,819 --> 00:04:16,590 that scientists will correct them as 94 00:04:21,349 --> 00:04:19,829 well but after reading the transcripts 95 00:04:25,070 --> 00:04:21,359 you see that what we're dealing with is 96 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:25,080 in asymmetry that there's a lot of 97 00:04:30,140 --> 00:04:27,570 interest on the part of the Buddhists on 98 00:04:32,270 --> 00:04:30,150 what science has to say but there's so 99 00:04:35,570 --> 00:04:32,280 far very little interest on part of 100 00:04:40,249 --> 00:04:35,580 science on what Buddhism has to say and 101 00:04:42,740 --> 00:04:40,259 you see this in stark contrast when the 102 00:04:45,469 --> 00:04:42,750 Dalai Lama repeatedly tries to bring up 103 00:04:48,499 --> 00:04:45,479 issues about reincarnation and about the 104 00:04:50,330 --> 00:04:48,509 use of the the oracle and and other 105 00:04:53,629 --> 00:04:50,340 things that we might consider to be 106 00:04:56,390 --> 00:04:53,639 psychic phenomena or related to that and 107 00:04:57,980 --> 00:04:56,400 the scientists present usually know 108 00:05:00,439 --> 00:04:57,990 nothing about these topics and they 109 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:00,449 dismiss them they dismiss them in a kind 110 00:05:04,909 --> 00:05:02,370 and gentle way so they don't piss off 111 00:05:07,010 --> 00:05:04,919 the Dalai Lama but nevertheless they say 112 00:05:10,730 --> 00:05:07,020 there's no evidence we can now go on to 113 00:05:12,890 --> 00:05:10,740 other topics and and this is I was just 114 00:05:16,610 --> 00:05:12,900 struck with this because for one thing 115 00:05:18,730 --> 00:05:16,620 it it really shows that the people that 116 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:18,740 are talking to the Dalai Lama are very 117 00:05:23,420 --> 00:05:21,690 straightforward mainstream very good at 118 00:05:26,149 --> 00:05:23,430 what they do but they don't actually 119 00:05:29,779 --> 00:05:26,159 know what they're talking about when 120 00:05:31,490 --> 00:05:29,789 they dismiss these topics and in almost 121 00:05:33,110 --> 00:05:31,500 every meeting either the Dalai Lama or 122 00:05:35,750 --> 00:05:33,120 somebody else that the meaning will try 123 00:05:37,969 --> 00:05:35,760 to raise well what about telepathy what 124 00:05:40,939 --> 00:05:37,979 about what about these issues and 125 00:05:43,070 --> 00:05:40,949 doesn't go anywhere so I was becoming 126 00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:43,080 annoyed at watching this year after year 127 00:05:47,890 --> 00:05:45,449 and I decided to root to write a book 128 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:47,900 that looked in more detail at the 129 00:05:55,300 --> 00:05:52,289 origins of why why does the Dalai Lama 130 00:05:59,060 --> 00:05:55,310 and other people say these things and 131 00:06:01,250 --> 00:05:59,070 what's wrong with science let's narrow 132 00:06:04,159 --> 00:06:01,260 that down a little bit because the title 133 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:04,169 supernormal is kind of a nebulous 134 00:06:11,059 --> 00:06:07,490 term specifically Dean what are you 135 00:06:14,149 --> 00:06:11,069 including in that list of super normal 136 00:06:15,860 --> 00:06:14,159 powers in your book and what did you 137 00:06:19,459 --> 00:06:15,870 maybe leave out that could have been 138 00:06:21,429 --> 00:06:19,469 left in well I'm making a distinction 139 00:06:25,249 --> 00:06:21,439 between super normal and supernatural 140 00:06:28,239 --> 00:06:25,259 mm-hmm sometimes you see these words 141 00:06:32,119 --> 00:06:28,249 used synonymously and they're really not 142 00:06:34,580 --> 00:06:32,129 super natural means beyond the natural 143 00:06:36,499 --> 00:06:34,590 world and it's it generally means that 144 00:06:39,619 --> 00:06:36,509 it's something we could consider to be 145 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:39,629 design divine not of the natural world 146 00:06:46,909 --> 00:06:41,930 above and beyond it in some way 147 00:06:50,570 --> 00:06:46,919 whereas super normal is ordinary normal 148 00:06:53,329 --> 00:06:50,580 stuff but just super bigger more 149 00:06:57,529 --> 00:06:53,339 powerful or more enhanced in some way 150 00:06:59,600 --> 00:06:57,539 and so I'm not intruding into the world 151 00:07:03,019 --> 00:06:59,610 of the divine because I wouldn't know 152 00:07:07,790 --> 00:07:03,029 how to study that anyway but I can look 153 00:07:10,700 --> 00:07:07,800 in detail at normal abilities that are 154 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:10,710 super in some way and there's a similar 155 00:07:17,329 --> 00:07:12,930 distinction between the words miracle 156 00:07:19,850 --> 00:07:17,339 and Marvel the word miracle assumes a 157 00:07:22,129 --> 00:07:19,860 divine source something happens that is 158 00:07:24,860 --> 00:07:22,139 cannot be explained through natural 159 00:07:26,089 --> 00:07:24,870 means whereas a Marvel is something 160 00:07:29,420 --> 00:07:26,099 that's extraordinary 161 00:07:31,209 --> 00:07:29,430 so the subtitle of the book is science 162 00:07:33,889 --> 00:07:31,219 yoga and the evidence for extraordinary 163 00:07:36,619 --> 00:07:33,899 psychic abilities and that that then 164 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:36,629 this is the boundary of what I'm looking 165 00:07:42,409 --> 00:07:39,210 at so tell us a little bit about some of 166 00:07:47,929 --> 00:07:42,419 those extraordinary abilities you look 167 00:07:51,579 --> 00:07:47,939 at in this book well I use yoga and the 168 00:07:55,879 --> 00:07:51,589 cities which is a Sanskrit word meaning 169 00:07:57,769 --> 00:07:55,889 perfection or attainment which is what 170 00:08:00,170 --> 00:07:57,779 is said to occur after advanced 171 00:08:02,329 --> 00:08:00,180 meditative practice and these are the 172 00:08:06,519 --> 00:08:02,339 special abilities that happened and 173 00:08:10,369 --> 00:08:06,529 they're almost all psychic abilities I 174 00:08:12,019 --> 00:08:10,379 use that path the yogic path and I could 175 00:08:13,730 --> 00:08:12,029 have used many others and I do mention 176 00:08:17,209 --> 00:08:13,740 them but I use the yoga path because it 177 00:08:17,750 --> 00:08:17,219 sets how so clearly what the tradition 178 00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:17,760 is 179 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:20,310 and in meditative traditions on what 180 00:08:25,070 --> 00:08:22,890 kinds of psychic ability you you would 181 00:08:27,260 --> 00:08:25,080 expect to bump into as a result of 182 00:08:29,830 --> 00:08:27,270 practice and they fall into three 183 00:08:33,409 --> 00:08:29,840 classes there is a class that is 184 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:33,419 exceptional mind-body connections these 185 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:36,810 are everything from intensely powerful 186 00:08:40,909 --> 00:08:38,970 self-healing like take the placebo 187 00:08:45,380 --> 00:08:40,919 effect and multiply it by a few thousand 188 00:08:49,070 --> 00:08:45,390 times to much more radical claims having 189 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:49,080 to do with inedia which is in other 190 00:08:53,510 --> 00:08:51,570 words called breatharianism where you 191 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:53,520 don't have to eat anything and you 192 00:09:00,140 --> 00:08:56,930 apparently live perfectly well two 193 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:00,150 effects which kind of blur the 194 00:09:05,270 --> 00:09:02,490 distinction between mind matter and body 195 00:09:07,460 --> 00:09:05,280 stuff and this includes levitation it's 196 00:09:09,350 --> 00:09:07,470 a lightening of your body until you 197 00:09:11,900 --> 00:09:09,360 begin to hover and perhaps even a fly 198 00:09:13,820 --> 00:09:11,910 and the opposite of levitation which is 199 00:09:15,950 --> 00:09:13,830 gravitation in which you become 200 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:15,960 extremely heavy and then there's 201 00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:18,210 SuperSpeed and super-strength and the 202 00:09:22,190 --> 00:09:20,310 whole array of things we associate with 203 00:09:25,430 --> 00:09:22,200 superheroes these are mostly body 204 00:09:28,700 --> 00:09:25,440 related stuff then there's another big 205 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:28,710 class of clairvoyance in the Yoga Sutras 206 00:09:34,490 --> 00:09:31,710 which is the classical yoga texts the 207 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:34,500 way that it's described are roughly 208 00:09:40,370 --> 00:09:37,250 twenty different forms of clairvoyance 209 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:40,380 but they all devolved down to the idea 210 00:09:45,770 --> 00:09:41,610 that we have access to information 211 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:45,780 that's either at a distance or hidden or 212 00:09:49,010 --> 00:09:47,370 very small they're very big that you 213 00:09:52,460 --> 00:09:49,020 wouldn't normally be able to see and 214 00:09:56,660 --> 00:09:52,470 then a smaller class on direct mind 215 00:10:00,740 --> 00:09:56,670 matter interactions in which the through 216 00:10:02,780 --> 00:10:00,750 thought things will manifest so you you 217 00:10:06,260 --> 00:10:02,790 wish to have a diamond and the diamond 218 00:10:09,710 --> 00:10:06,270 appears that kind of thing so I discuss 219 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:09,720 the full range but in discussing it I 220 00:10:13,970 --> 00:10:11,490 also make very clear that because this 221 00:10:16,580 --> 00:10:13,980 is a investigation from a scientific 222 00:10:18,050 --> 00:10:16,590 perspective I can really only discuss 223 00:10:20,690 --> 00:10:18,060 with any confidence things that have 224 00:10:22,670 --> 00:10:20,700 been studied in the laboratory for many 225 00:10:26,570 --> 00:10:22,680 decades and has been looked at 226 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:26,580 repeatedly and that we gained some some 227 00:10:30,290 --> 00:10:27,930 reason to believe that the effects are 228 00:10:31,580 --> 00:10:30,300 real so it really comes down to about 229 00:10:34,490 --> 00:10:31,590 four different classes 230 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:34,500 of experiments in which we have very 231 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:36,450 high confidence that some of the 232 00:10:42,830 --> 00:10:40,050 original concepts of the cities these 233 00:10:45,110 --> 00:10:42,840 special powers are true and if those are 234 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:45,120 true then it raises the plausibility 235 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:47,010 that some of the other things that have 236 00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:49,410 been described including levitation and 237 00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:51,270 an invisibility and all the rest that 238 00:10:55,730 --> 00:10:53,760 some of that may not be completely 239 00:10:58,280 --> 00:10:55,740 fairytales even though we don't have 240 00:11:00,050 --> 00:10:58,290 good evidence for it today maybe at some 241 00:11:02,570 --> 00:11:00,060 time it did exist or maybe we have the 242 00:11:04,430 --> 00:11:02,580 potential to to see those things right 243 00:11:06,010 --> 00:11:04,440 because as you point out those things 244 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:06,020 are talked about in a very 245 00:11:14,540 --> 00:11:10,410 matter-of-fact way in not only the 246 00:11:17,150 --> 00:11:14,550 ancient Hindu in yogic text but in 247 00:11:20,390 --> 00:11:17,160 contemporary accounts of people's 248 00:11:21,769 --> 00:11:20,400 encounters with various yoga masters 249 00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:21,779 right that's right 250 00:11:26,150 --> 00:11:23,880 so obviously your book you're making 251 00:11:28,340 --> 00:11:26,160 frequent references to the yogic yogic 252 00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:28,350 tradition and meditation what are your 253 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:31,980 personal experiences with yoga and 254 00:11:38,090 --> 00:11:34,970 meditation both before the book and 255 00:11:43,940 --> 00:11:38,100 during the the research and the writing 256 00:11:46,340 --> 00:11:43,950 of the book well I've done yoga one form 257 00:11:48,620 --> 00:11:46,350 or another for many years not not for 258 00:11:51,890 --> 00:11:48,630 the past couple of years as as seriously 259 00:11:56,300 --> 00:11:51,900 as they had in the past and I've also 260 00:11:59,240 --> 00:11:56,310 done meditation on and off for over 40 261 00:12:02,990 --> 00:11:59,250 years but when I decided to write a book 262 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:03,000 on this topic and I looked at the 263 00:12:08,540 --> 00:12:05,970 research that is coming out now both on 264 00:12:11,540 --> 00:12:08,550 yoga and meditation the mental and 265 00:12:14,630 --> 00:12:11,550 physical benefits of meditation I 266 00:12:17,270 --> 00:12:14,640 decided it would basically be stupid not 267 00:12:18,620 --> 00:12:17,280 to meditate it would be stupid in the 268 00:12:21,770 --> 00:12:18,630 same sense that it would be stupid not 269 00:12:23,750 --> 00:12:21,780 to brush your teeth every day that has a 270 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:23,760 daily practice that you simply do 271 00:12:30,500 --> 00:12:26,970 because it's the right thing to do you 272 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:30,510 have to meditate now this doesn't mean 273 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:33,890 that that some people are just naturally 274 00:12:40,670 --> 00:12:36,450 inclined either through temperament or 275 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:40,680 genetic inheritance that they're they're 276 00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:44,130 very calm and and can and 277 00:12:48,860 --> 00:12:46,649 and controlled in a sense that they're 278 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:48,870 they're not tightly controlled but they 279 00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:50,730 they don't worry about things they're 280 00:12:54,769 --> 00:12:52,889 not anxious they're they're just a calm 281 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:54,779 people for a person like that they 282 00:12:59,210 --> 00:12:56,370 probably don't need to meditate too much 283 00:13:02,749 --> 00:12:59,220 because the the stress of the modern age 284 00:13:06,290 --> 00:13:02,759 is that the the disease of the modern 285 00:13:08,749 --> 00:13:06,300 age is stress and so if you can if you 286 00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:08,759 don't find a way to easily control that 287 00:13:14,530 --> 00:13:10,800 or do something about stress it will eat 288 00:13:17,389 --> 00:13:14,540 you alive and I tend to be wired tight 289 00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:17,399 naturally I'm a high high anxious person 290 00:13:24,499 --> 00:13:21,440 and I can tell a dramatic difference 291 00:13:26,749 --> 00:13:24,509 when I'm meditating versus not just in 292 00:13:29,449 --> 00:13:26,759 the way that I feel and how I sleep and 293 00:13:32,900 --> 00:13:29,459 all the other things related to going 294 00:13:34,370 --> 00:13:32,910 about your daily life so the combination 295 00:13:36,439 --> 00:13:34,380 of my past experience with meditation 296 00:13:39,079 --> 00:13:36,449 and also taking what I've written in 297 00:13:41,540 --> 00:13:39,089 this book seriously I decided okay I 298 00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:41,550 really got to do this so I've been I 299 00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:43,740 have a meditation practice they do twice 300 00:13:48,379 --> 00:13:46,800 a day now and have done every single day 301 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:48,389 for the last two years and I plan on 302 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:52,170 continuing it because it really it it 303 00:13:56,569 --> 00:13:53,850 primarily just makes me feel a lot 304 00:13:58,639 --> 00:13:56,579 better but having read all of the the 305 00:14:00,980 --> 00:13:58,649 rest of the scientific evidence and a 306 00:14:03,259 --> 00:14:00,990 lot about the yogic lore it may go 307 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:03,269 beyond that as well mm-hmm in the 308 00:14:08,929 --> 00:14:05,490 introduction to super normal you talked 309 00:14:11,569 --> 00:14:08,939 about the empirical scientific evidence 310 00:14:14,179 --> 00:14:11,579 for these things being overwhelming and 311 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:14,189 you suggest that it's an opportunity for 312 00:14:20,079 --> 00:14:17,250 science to pull itself up by its 313 00:14:22,819 --> 00:14:20,089 bootstraps tell us what you mean by that 314 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:22,829 particularly the pull itself up by the 315 00:14:27,949 --> 00:14:25,050 bootstraps why does science need to pull 316 00:14:30,679 --> 00:14:27,959 itself up by the bootstraps well of 317 00:14:33,439 --> 00:14:30,689 course the the phrase means that in 318 00:14:36,319 --> 00:14:33,449 order to make an advancement a major 319 00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:36,329 advancement sometimes you can pull 320 00:14:41,449 --> 00:14:37,920 yourself up by the rungs of a ladder 321 00:14:44,019 --> 00:14:41,459 this is the evolutionary step by step 322 00:14:46,759 --> 00:14:44,029 pulling in a predictable sequence 323 00:14:48,199 --> 00:14:46,769 pulling yourself up by bootstraps is 324 00:14:50,990 --> 00:14:48,209 almost paradoxical because you're 325 00:14:53,389 --> 00:14:51,000 pulling yourself up from the bottom well 326 00:14:55,579 --> 00:14:53,399 how can you do that and you can't do 327 00:14:58,040 --> 00:14:55,589 that in the real world but the concept 328 00:15:00,829 --> 00:14:58,050 is that they 329 00:15:03,949 --> 00:15:00,839 need to make a leap of faith essentially 330 00:15:06,380 --> 00:15:03,959 based on evidence that comes out of your 331 00:15:07,970 --> 00:15:06,390 tradition it's like suddenly there's 332 00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:07,980 another ladder that appears next to you 333 00:15:11,180 --> 00:15:09,600 instead of taking the evolutionary step 334 00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:11,190 up your ladder you'll say well maybe 335 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:13,740 there's a ladder there that works too so 336 00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:15,930 in this case it means there's a very 337 00:15:21,410 --> 00:15:18,510 long tradition much longer than the 338 00:15:23,569 --> 00:15:21,420 scientific tradition that is not only in 339 00:15:26,090 --> 00:15:23,579 yoga but in many other paths as well 340 00:15:28,940 --> 00:15:26,100 that's that basically I'll say the same 341 00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:28,950 thing that if you if you sit down you 342 00:15:33,889 --> 00:15:31,110 quiet your mind you pay attention to 343 00:15:37,310 --> 00:15:33,899 what's going on deeply subjectively then 344 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:37,320 whole new worlds appear now the question 345 00:15:43,250 --> 00:15:41,250 here is that psychologists in the last 346 00:15:45,350 --> 00:15:43,260 century spend a fair amount of time with 347 00:15:47,420 --> 00:15:45,360 introspection and trying to figure out 348 00:15:49,730 --> 00:15:47,430 how does the mind work by introspecting 349 00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:49,740 and they didn't get very far with that 350 00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:54,000 and I would say that that has dampened 351 00:15:59,449 --> 00:15:56,880 enthusiasm in psychology for the idea 352 00:16:02,300 --> 00:15:59,459 that you could learn something about the 353 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:02,310 mind and maybe beyond the mind simply by 354 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:03,810 paying attention what's going on inside 355 00:16:09,949 --> 00:16:06,890 your head except that the means by which 356 00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:09,959 psychologists were using introspection 357 00:16:15,170 --> 00:16:12,660 was not the same as what meditators do 358 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:15,180 and so if you follow the original 359 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:17,490 meditative traditions and of course 360 00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:19,290 there are dozens of different meditative 361 00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:20,910 styles and which may lead to different 362 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:24,480 insights but if you if you follow those 363 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:27,810 traditions you find somewhere at the 364 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:30,690 bottom meaning advanced practice that 365 00:16:35,449 --> 00:16:32,610 they begin to converge in a worldview 366 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:35,459 and that worldview is something that 367 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:38,970 science knows very little about probably 368 00:16:44,210 --> 00:16:41,610 the deepest look into there at this 369 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:44,220 point has been cyber search because 370 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:45,690 we're low we're looking at the this 371 00:16:49,610 --> 00:16:47,370 boundary between mind and matter and 372 00:16:53,870 --> 00:16:49,620 that's kind of where these deep 373 00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:53,880 meditative practices begin to to diverge 374 00:16:59,480 --> 00:16:57,120 from what scientific assumptions would 375 00:17:02,240 --> 00:16:59,490 say about the nature of reality and so 376 00:17:04,819 --> 00:17:02,250 what can science learn that about deep 377 00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:04,829 subjectivity I think it has a lot to 378 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:07,020 learn in the same way that science has 379 00:17:11,150 --> 00:17:08,970 learned a lot more about deep 380 00:17:12,810 --> 00:17:11,160 objectivity than the meditative 381 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:12,820 traditions have 382 00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:14,290 we have something to learn from that 383 00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:16,420 tradition as well okay but doesn't 384 00:17:22,290 --> 00:17:19,360 science require a kind of closed loop 385 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:22,300 system that you're exploding both in 386 00:17:27,570 --> 00:17:24,450 this book and in your previous books and 387 00:17:29,490 --> 00:17:27,580 if as you're hinting at again in this 388 00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:29,500 book and in your previous books the 389 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:31,600 consciousness is somehow fundamental 390 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:35,290 then why or how can we possibly get 391 00:17:40,170 --> 00:17:37,090 there with a science that's centered 392 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:40,180 around measuring matter I mean is it 393 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:42,370 realistic to pull yourself up by the 394 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:44,170 bootstraps when there's that kind of 395 00:17:49,470 --> 00:17:46,690 huge paradigm shift that has to take 396 00:17:51,420 --> 00:17:49,480 place well when you pull yourself up 397 00:17:53,850 --> 00:17:51,430 from your bootstraps it is it does 398 00:17:57,540 --> 00:17:53,860 require different assumptions and 399 00:17:59,340 --> 00:17:57,550 perhaps different methods but science is 400 00:18:02,340 --> 00:17:59,350 good at that science has developed new 401 00:18:03,780 --> 00:18:02,350 methods as new challenges come along in 402 00:18:05,310 --> 00:18:03,790 fact if we didn't develop new 403 00:18:07,950 --> 00:18:05,320 instruments and new methods we wouldn't 404 00:18:10,980 --> 00:18:07,960 have gotten very far so the nice thing 405 00:18:13,110 --> 00:18:10,990 about Sciences as an open system is that 406 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:13,120 it is flexible and basically limited 407 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:17,010 primarily by by our imagination 408 00:18:22,170 --> 00:18:20,050 ultimately the proof in the pudding is 409 00:18:24,990 --> 00:18:22,180 whether people can repeat things and 410 00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:25,000 independently but the means by which we 411 00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:29,440 get to that stage is not fixed okay but 412 00:18:34,020 --> 00:18:32,080 I still wonder if you know we're kind of 413 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:34,030 nibbling around at the edges of 414 00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:36,730 something that we have to swallow whole 415 00:18:41,370 --> 00:18:39,760 I mean as you mentioned in the book and 416 00:18:44,550 --> 00:18:41,380 you mentioned previously in this 417 00:18:47,670 --> 00:18:44,560 interview these yogic traditions don't 418 00:18:49,140 --> 00:18:47,680 point to super normal powers that's not 419 00:18:51,030 --> 00:18:49,150 what they're about and in fact they go 420 00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:51,040 to great lengths to say hey it's not 421 00:18:55,890 --> 00:18:52,720 about these super normal powers don't 422 00:18:58,740 --> 00:18:55,900 worry about them it's about changing 423 00:19:02,700 --> 00:18:58,750 your connection and how you relate to 424 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:02,710 for bat lack of a better word God if 425 00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:05,650 we're not willing to tackle the divine 426 00:19:12,090 --> 00:19:08,110 if we throw up our hands and say we 427 00:19:14,010 --> 00:19:12,100 can't measure the divine then we're kind 428 00:19:16,410 --> 00:19:14,020 of playing a different game but are we 429 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:16,420 playing the game you know are we just 430 00:19:20,980 --> 00:19:18,490 playing some sideshow game over here 431 00:19:24,250 --> 00:19:20,990 that's a very good point 432 00:19:25,870 --> 00:19:24,260 so it's true that the yogic path and 433 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:25,880 many of these other mystical paths are 434 00:19:31,870 --> 00:19:28,490 basically pointing to enlightenment 435 00:19:34,030 --> 00:19:31,880 enlightenment is so far away from where 436 00:19:37,210 --> 00:19:34,040 science is that it's probably too far a 437 00:19:39,730 --> 00:19:37,220 reach for now and it's also true that 438 00:19:41,380 --> 00:19:39,740 these traditions say you're going to 439 00:19:42,820 --> 00:19:41,390 bump into these psychic things and don't 440 00:19:44,410 --> 00:19:42,830 pay attention to them because they're 441 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:44,420 just yardsticks on the way to something 442 00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:48,050 more interesting I would say that from 443 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:51,710 the the ancient traditions and that 444 00:19:55,570 --> 00:19:54,410 advice was probably sound that you know 445 00:19:57,700 --> 00:19:55,580 don't pay much attention to these 446 00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:57,710 strange phenomena because that's not 447 00:20:02,680 --> 00:19:59,600 where you want to go well we're in the 448 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:02,690 modern age now and what science is is 449 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:05,890 able to do is study not the depths of 450 00:20:10,870 --> 00:20:08,690 enlightenment but we certainly can study 451 00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:10,880 the very place where mind and matter 452 00:20:15,549 --> 00:20:13,520 meet it's where the deep subjective and 453 00:20:19,390 --> 00:20:15,559 deep objective meet and that is psychic 454 00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:19,400 phenomena so the reason why the book is 455 00:20:23,650 --> 00:20:21,260 an entree into that says you know what 456 00:20:25,780 --> 00:20:23,660 science do you we don't know yet have 457 00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:25,790 scientists how to go all the way down to 458 00:20:30,010 --> 00:20:27,710 or all the way up to the Enlightenment 459 00:20:32,740 --> 00:20:30,020 but we can begin to go much much deeper 460 00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:32,750 than we have before and in the process 461 00:20:38,410 --> 00:20:35,840 of studying the very area that very 462 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:38,420 boundary that the ancients would say 463 00:20:43,180 --> 00:20:40,910 don't pay attention to well we have to 464 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:43,190 pay attention to that because if we 465 00:20:47,290 --> 00:20:45,410 ignore it as well we'll never get 466 00:20:49,870 --> 00:20:47,300 anywhere I mean you know we'll continue 467 00:20:52,090 --> 00:20:49,880 to make things in an evolutionary steps 468 00:20:56,020 --> 00:20:52,100 we won't make big new discoveries about 469 00:20:56,980 --> 00:20:56,030 the nature of consciousness so if we're 470 00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:56,990 interested in the nature of 471 00:21:01,450 --> 00:20:58,690 consciousness we need to expand it to 472 00:21:04,210 --> 00:21:01,460 exactly in the place where the Yogi's 473 00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:04,220 that don't pay much attention to and in 474 00:21:08,380 --> 00:21:06,080 and in the process I think we have the 475 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:08,390 opportunity to learn something not only 476 00:21:13,060 --> 00:21:10,850 new for us but also new for the Yogi's 477 00:21:15,460 --> 00:21:13,070 because you see the Yogi's they didn't 478 00:21:17,169 --> 00:21:15,470 have theoretical concepts like we do 479 00:21:19,630 --> 00:21:17,179 they didn't understand the nature of the 480 00:21:21,580 --> 00:21:19,640 physical world like we do so we have the 481 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:21,590 possibility of creating something really 482 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:24,650 new by combining old wisdom with modern 483 00:21:31,570 --> 00:21:28,370 methods so Dean as you've pushed this 484 00:21:33,220 --> 00:21:31,580 envelope towards extending consciousness 485 00:21:34,419 --> 00:21:33,230 and realizing there's some limits to how 486 00:21:36,970 --> 00:21:34,429 far we can go 487 00:21:39,639 --> 00:21:36,980 has it changed your approach or your 488 00:21:42,399 --> 00:21:39,649 ideas about how you would approach this 489 00:21:44,230 --> 00:21:42,409 experimentally in your lab you've been 490 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:44,240 doing this kind of research for a long 491 00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:47,809 time how did investigating these yogic 492 00:21:54,549 --> 00:21:50,960 traditions change where you might want 493 00:21:58,180 --> 00:21:54,559 to go in the future in your lab that's a 494 00:22:01,210 --> 00:21:58,190 fair question one of the things that you 495 00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:01,220 you see when you study the cities and 496 00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:03,440 this is mentioned in the literature is 497 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:06,110 the difference between spontaneous 498 00:22:10,149 --> 00:22:08,450 psychic phenomena including the the 499 00:22:13,210 --> 00:22:10,159 effects that we study in the laboratory 500 00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:13,220 as compared to what happens when 501 00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:15,440 somebody actually achieves one of the 502 00:22:20,980 --> 00:22:18,200 cities so the cities like if you have a 503 00:22:24,249 --> 00:22:20,990 city of telepathy or clairvoyance it's 504 00:22:26,350 --> 00:22:24,259 not weak in sporadic and sometimes 505 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:26,360 appears and sometimes doesn't it's a 506 00:22:31,899 --> 00:22:29,210 hundred percent it's there it's like 507 00:22:35,259 --> 00:22:31,909 it's like an ordinary sense and it's 508 00:22:36,789 --> 00:22:35,269 powerful and so obviously I pay 509 00:22:38,710 --> 00:22:36,799 attention to that because it would be 510 00:22:41,470 --> 00:22:38,720 really nice if we can get somebody to do 511 00:22:43,899 --> 00:22:41,480 that in the laboratory and yet we can't 512 00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:43,909 use somebody from the yogic tradition or 513 00:22:46,869 --> 00:22:45,289 one of the other traditions because 514 00:22:49,539 --> 00:22:46,879 they're told not to pay attention to it 515 00:22:52,060 --> 00:22:49,549 or at least not to demonstrate these 516 00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:52,070 abilities and I've already run up 517 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:54,080 against that with with a very advanced 518 00:22:58,419 --> 00:22:56,690 meditators who when I ask can they do 519 00:23:01,930 --> 00:22:58,429 some of the cities they just smile and 520 00:23:04,299 --> 00:23:01,940 they won't say anything else so we're 521 00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:04,309 kind of stuck there but what we can do 522 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:06,710 and what we have been starting to do in 523 00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:10,850 in my lab is to use every trick in the 524 00:23:15,509 --> 00:23:12,559 book that we can think of to optimize 525 00:23:19,539 --> 00:23:15,519 the conditions under which somebody can 526 00:23:21,580 --> 00:23:19,549 can achieve higher reliability and this 527 00:23:23,919 --> 00:23:21,590 includes things like the use of 528 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:23,929 neurofeedback to get people's brain 529 00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:26,450 States into the right condition so that 530 00:23:32,830 --> 00:23:29,360 they can maintain this for example an 531 00:23:34,869 --> 00:23:32,840 alpha state where you're very highly 532 00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:34,879 alert but you have no anxiety behind it 533 00:23:40,779 --> 00:23:37,600 so that that seems to be an important 534 00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:40,789 condition or state to be in of so-called 535 00:23:45,909 --> 00:23:44,480 effortless driving so you can train 536 00:23:49,210 --> 00:23:45,919 people to get there and you can train 537 00:23:52,570 --> 00:23:49,220 them fairly quickly using neuro feed 538 00:23:55,090 --> 00:23:52,580 we can use hypnosis to alter people's 539 00:23:57,159 --> 00:23:55,100 beliefs a little bit because one of the 540 00:23:59,169 --> 00:23:57,169 blocks that we see in these phenomena is 541 00:24:01,390 --> 00:23:59,179 that you maintain enough doubt that 542 00:24:03,549 --> 00:24:01,400 you're basically self-defeating well if 543 00:24:05,350 --> 00:24:03,559 you use if you're susceptible to 544 00:24:09,250 --> 00:24:05,360 hypnosis and that can be changed 545 00:24:10,930 --> 00:24:09,260 you can change at least momentarily what 546 00:24:14,590 --> 00:24:10,940 you believe both consciously and even 547 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:14,600 unconsciously we can do tests looking at 548 00:24:19,180 --> 00:24:17,090 the difference between your conscious 549 00:24:20,830 --> 00:24:19,190 belief and your unconscious belief 550 00:24:23,020 --> 00:24:20,840 through what's called implicit testing 551 00:24:25,779 --> 00:24:23,030 there are a variety of ways of doing 552 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:25,789 experiments that reveal how you really 553 00:24:32,169 --> 00:24:29,210 feel how you unconsciously feel about 554 00:24:33,610 --> 00:24:32,179 certain topics including your belief 555 00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:33,620 that you'd be able to do something 556 00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:36,080 psychic in the lab and if it turns out 557 00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:39,200 that you consciously say yeah I could do 558 00:24:44,020 --> 00:24:41,510 this but but unconsciously you're saying 559 00:24:45,850 --> 00:24:44,030 I don't think I can do this well we need 560 00:24:47,470 --> 00:24:45,860 to know that because that would be a way 561 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:47,480 of discriminating between somebody who's 562 00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:49,210 likely to do better than somebody else 563 00:24:56,620 --> 00:24:53,870 so we're working down a list of ways 564 00:25:00,640 --> 00:24:56,630 that we know of optimizing or suspecting 565 00:25:03,130 --> 00:25:00,650 that it would optimize our ability to to 566 00:25:05,049 --> 00:25:03,140 provide the right concentration the 567 00:25:07,330 --> 00:25:05,059 right motivation the right belief the 568 00:25:09,850 --> 00:25:07,340 right practice the right environment for 569 00:25:12,370 --> 00:25:09,860 doing the experiments everything we can 570 00:25:16,180 --> 00:25:12,380 think of to to see if we can start 571 00:25:17,620 --> 00:25:16,190 moving in the direction of the level of 572 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:17,630 performance that is described in the 573 00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:19,250 cities as compared to what we normally 574 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:23,500 see which is sporadic and performance is 575 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:26,450 buffeted all over the place mm-hmm can 576 00:25:30,190 --> 00:25:28,010 you tell us a little bit about how 577 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:30,200 that's coming together in some of your 578 00:25:38,590 --> 00:25:35,330 current work well our first approach in 579 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:38,600 this direction was to is in a mind 580 00:25:44,169 --> 00:25:40,610 matter interaction experiment which is 581 00:25:48,130 --> 00:25:44,179 not published yet but will be soon we 582 00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:48,140 hope and what we did is during the 583 00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:50,240 experiment mind matter interaction 584 00:25:56,530 --> 00:25:54,110 experiment we also took 32 channel EEG 585 00:26:01,480 --> 00:25:56,540 measures and we asked each participant 586 00:26:02,259 --> 00:26:01,490 to take a personality inventory call the 587 00:26:04,180 --> 00:26:02,269 Cloninger 588 00:26:07,389 --> 00:26:04,190 temperament and character inventory and 589 00:26:10,389 --> 00:26:07,399 this is an interesting personality test 590 00:26:12,579 --> 00:26:10,399 because it it assumes that your 591 00:26:16,419 --> 00:26:12,589 temperament your basic temperament is 592 00:26:18,479 --> 00:26:16,429 driven by your biology that the the way 593 00:26:21,219 --> 00:26:18,489 that you approach the world and 594 00:26:23,289 --> 00:26:21,229 fundamental ways is driven by your 595 00:26:24,909 --> 00:26:23,299 genetic inheritance and this was 596 00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:24,919 developed partially as a result of 597 00:26:29,109 --> 00:26:27,049 looking at personality similarities and 598 00:26:33,609 --> 00:26:29,119 temperament similarities among identical 599 00:26:36,369 --> 00:26:33,619 twins and it holds up and then the your 600 00:26:40,269 --> 00:26:36,379 basic temperament is according to this 601 00:26:44,229 --> 00:26:40,279 theory is modulated by what they call 602 00:26:46,930 --> 00:26:44,239 character and character is your your 603 00:26:49,509 --> 00:26:46,940 history how events in your life have 604 00:26:51,729 --> 00:26:49,519 shaped and changed your temperament so 605 00:26:54,069 --> 00:26:51,739 the the questionnaire that we give it's 606 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:54,079 two hundred and forty items it comes out 607 00:26:58,060 --> 00:26:56,450 with different scales showing your 608 00:27:00,699 --> 00:26:58,070 temperament and your person and your 609 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:00,709 character we have the EEG measures and 610 00:27:04,690 --> 00:27:02,690 we have information on how you how the 611 00:27:06,879 --> 00:27:04,700 people did on the matter interaction 612 00:27:09,579 --> 00:27:06,889 tasks and we look at the correlations 613 00:27:11,349 --> 00:27:09,589 among these different factors and we're 614 00:27:13,449 --> 00:27:11,359 finding some very interesting things and 615 00:27:14,949 --> 00:27:13,459 I'm not going to go into it in any 616 00:27:17,649 --> 00:27:14,959 detail because it's not published yet 617 00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:17,659 but the upshot of it is that it gives us 618 00:27:23,349 --> 00:27:20,559 a better picture on what kinds of people 619 00:27:26,109 --> 00:27:23,359 do well in what kinds of brain states 620 00:27:29,109 --> 00:27:26,119 for for these particular tasks and that 621 00:27:30,940 --> 00:27:29,119 gives us a clue about both who to select 622 00:27:35,589 --> 00:27:30,950 and what kind of brain States to be in 623 00:27:37,209 --> 00:27:35,599 in order to to optimize performance you 624 00:27:40,209 --> 00:27:37,219 know finally doctor Braden I want to 625 00:27:42,099 --> 00:27:40,219 touch on one other topic that I don't 626 00:27:45,159 --> 00:27:42,109 think you talked a lot about you've 627 00:27:48,489 --> 00:27:45,169 built a solid reputation as a scientist 628 00:27:50,829 --> 00:27:48,499 people look to you for the integrity and 629 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:50,839 the rigor you bring to your work but 630 00:27:56,199 --> 00:27:53,450 you're also whether you want to or not 631 00:27:59,139 --> 00:27:56,209 have been pushed on the front lines of 632 00:28:02,199 --> 00:27:59,149 this worldview battle that's going on 633 00:28:04,389 --> 00:28:02,209 where on one hand we have a culture 634 00:28:06,909 --> 00:28:04,399 that's built on materialism really two 635 00:28:10,089 --> 00:28:06,919 kinds of materialism both scientific 636 00:28:12,609 --> 00:28:10,099 materialism the we are biological robots 637 00:28:13,870 --> 00:28:12,619 life is meaningless the universe is 638 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:13,880 meaningless 639 00:28:19,780 --> 00:28:17,210 an economic materialism that just kind 640 00:28:23,740 --> 00:28:19,790 of tells us that he who dies with the 641 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:23,750 most toys wins and I'm wondering given 642 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:26,690 the extent to which we have to 643 00:28:32,410 --> 00:28:28,850 acknowledge we're just totally a mesh in 644 00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:32,420 this paradigm do you really think we can 645 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:35,120 navigate out of it I mean you're kind of 646 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:37,130 painting a picture for how we would do 647 00:28:42,010 --> 00:28:39,650 that with this book and with your body 648 00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:42,020 of research but do you really think 649 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:45,200 that's possible you mean is it possible 650 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:51,250 given the the amount of inertia and 651 00:29:00,520 --> 00:28:55,450 economic investment in the status quo 652 00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:00,530 economic political military day-to-day 653 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:04,190 our technology we are a mess in it when 654 00:29:08,830 --> 00:29:06,770 we talk about transcending it I wonder 655 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:08,840 if it's if it's one if it's a pipe dream 656 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:11,450 and two if it's really something we even 657 00:29:19,540 --> 00:29:16,130 want well it's it's a very good question 658 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:19,550 and I I think on alternate days I'm 659 00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:22,730 optimistic and pessimistic the inertia 660 00:29:28,660 --> 00:29:26,960 is gigantic many people are still 661 00:29:30,790 --> 00:29:28,670 questioning as to whether the climate 662 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:30,800 change is real or not even in the midst 663 00:29:38,020 --> 00:29:35,570 of extremely unusual weather I I live in 664 00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:38,030 Sonoma County in California and 665 00:29:46,450 --> 00:29:42,080 yesterday in Sonoma County there was the 666 00:29:48,940 --> 00:29:46,460 longest run of lightning strikes and the 667 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:48,950 middle of the night almost out of 668 00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:52,730 nowhere for hours it just stayed in one 669 00:29:58,480 --> 00:29:55,310 particular spot for hours and it lit 670 00:30:00,040 --> 00:29:58,490 something like 20 or 30 fires and people 671 00:30:01,540 --> 00:30:00,050 have lived in Sonoma County for their 672 00:30:03,070 --> 00:30:01,550 entire lives including the newspaper 673 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:03,080 reporting someone who's 80 years old 674 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:05,810 saying he had never even heard of 675 00:30:10,330 --> 00:30:07,490 anything like that before happening 676 00:30:12,730 --> 00:30:10,340 anywhere and it never happens to have 677 00:30:15,790 --> 00:30:12,740 lightning storms like this in Sonoma 678 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:15,800 County so where we are faced almost 679 00:30:19,810 --> 00:30:18,170 daily now with extremely unusual weather 680 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:19,820 patterns and yet when we look at what's 681 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:21,890 happening in politics it's as though 682 00:30:27,049 --> 00:30:24,530 this is nothing and it actually doesn't 683 00:30:30,259 --> 00:30:27,059 even matter what the cause is 684 00:30:32,060 --> 00:30:30,269 what matters is that it become a topic 685 00:30:34,159 --> 00:30:32,070 of discussion and what do we do about it 686 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:34,169 yeah but but that's really problematic 687 00:30:41,659 --> 00:30:38,730 because if we look at climate and we 688 00:30:44,119 --> 00:30:41,669 look at it scientifically it's it's just 689 00:30:47,060 --> 00:30:44,129 another rat's nest I mean the the 690 00:30:50,180 --> 00:30:47,070 biggest news scientifically in climate 691 00:30:53,090 --> 00:30:50,190 has to do with both the UN governing 692 00:30:55,580 --> 00:30:53,100 body and NASA coming out and saying that 693 00:30:58,940 --> 00:30:55,590 in the last 17 years there's been no 694 00:31:01,999 --> 00:30:58,950 global warming so whether we're screwing 695 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:02,009 up our environment to the extent that we 696 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:05,850 think we are with co2 gases we can put 697 00:31:12,259 --> 00:31:08,850 that aside for a second and deal with by 698 00:31:15,019 --> 00:31:12,269 the best measures we have these models 699 00:31:17,149 --> 00:31:15,029 that we were all excited about a few 700 00:31:19,399 --> 00:31:17,159 years ago have totally failed us they 701 00:31:21,649 --> 00:31:19,409 haven't predicted what we would expect 702 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:21,659 to happen given the variables that have 703 00:31:27,019 --> 00:31:23,850 come into it so I don't think it's any 704 00:31:29,629 --> 00:31:27,029 surprise that people are they're stunned 705 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:29,639 into inaction I mean which way should we 706 00:31:33,169 --> 00:31:29,970 go 707 00:31:36,889 --> 00:31:33,179 moreover the whole global warming thing 708 00:31:40,129 --> 00:31:36,899 was sold to us wrapped up in a just a 709 00:31:43,999 --> 00:31:40,139 goofy carbon trading multi trillion 710 00:31:46,639 --> 00:31:44,009 dollar scam deal that is it can't be 711 00:31:49,310 --> 00:31:46,649 separated from the science so again 712 00:31:52,460 --> 00:31:49,320 doesn't this point to how these things 713 00:31:56,330 --> 00:31:52,470 are a meshed how science is a meshed 714 00:31:59,810 --> 00:31:56,340 with our politics and whatever else is 715 00:32:03,859 --> 00:31:59,820 driving us towards this future that 716 00:32:07,060 --> 00:32:03,869 someone is planning yeah that's that's 717 00:32:09,710 --> 00:32:07,070 where my pessimism arises from that 718 00:32:13,369 --> 00:32:09,720 because of economic interests and 719 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:13,379 because of people who have money and 720 00:32:19,399 --> 00:32:15,090 power wanting to maintain it which means 721 00:32:21,919 --> 00:32:19,409 maintaining the status quo it it's 722 00:32:25,039 --> 00:32:21,929 unlikely that much will change at all 723 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:25,049 what does push change at least within 724 00:32:30,830 --> 00:32:28,710 scientific world is new and exciting 725 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:30,840 theories because fortunately a lot of 726 00:32:33,769 --> 00:32:32,610 scientists are kind of like myself and 727 00:32:35,570 --> 00:32:33,779 while we pay attention to what's going 728 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:35,580 on in the world what we're really driven 729 00:32:39,970 --> 00:32:38,450 by is curiosity about the natural world 730 00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:39,980 and so somebody comes along with 731 00:32:44,349 --> 00:32:42,710 something really cool and interesting it 732 00:32:46,090 --> 00:32:44,359 attracts a lot of scientific attention 733 00:32:48,430 --> 00:32:46,100 even though we don't actually know if 734 00:32:50,499 --> 00:32:48,440 there's a practical use for it now 735 00:32:52,479 --> 00:32:50,509 if it turns out that something is 736 00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:52,489 developed that has a practical use and 737 00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:54,320 it gains even more attention because 738 00:32:59,169 --> 00:32:55,519 there are plenty of people out there who 739 00:33:02,759 --> 00:32:59,179 want to make money based on it so when 740 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:02,769 I'm optimistic I'm thinking well if 741 00:33:06,340 --> 00:33:04,730 particularly if quantum biology 742 00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:06,350 continues in the direction it's going 743 00:33:11,529 --> 00:33:09,529 then the plausibility case that could be 744 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:11,539 made for a theoretical underpinning for 745 00:33:17,289 --> 00:33:15,049 for psychic effects can will continually 746 00:33:19,889 --> 00:33:17,299 get better and then people will pay more 747 00:33:22,930 --> 00:33:19,899 attention to the data and ultimately 748 00:33:24,820 --> 00:33:22,940 it'll simply become one more interesting 749 00:33:28,389 --> 00:33:24,830 and curious thing that science can study 750 00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:28,399 and in which case it doesn't matter 751 00:33:33,279 --> 00:33:30,070 what's going on in the rest of the 752 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:33,289 socio-political context it's something 753 00:33:37,749 --> 00:33:35,690 that will just naturally be absorbed 754 00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:37,759 into science because it's something 755 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:41,600 that's curious now that said certainly 756 00:33:47,109 --> 00:33:44,210 the topic is still quite taboo it's very 757 00:33:48,849 --> 00:33:47,119 difficult for people to to make a living 758 00:33:50,979 --> 00:33:48,859 in the academic world if they're 759 00:33:52,450 --> 00:33:50,989 interested in this topic but 760 00:33:55,330 --> 00:33:52,460 historically that's been true for other 761 00:33:58,930 --> 00:33:55,340 topics as well and eventually truth will 762 00:34:00,729 --> 00:33:58,940 out and it's simply a matter of more 763 00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:00,739 struggle during the times when it's 764 00:34:05,229 --> 00:34:02,480 taboo but of you know that could change 765 00:34:08,169 --> 00:34:05,239 and it could change quickly well let's 766 00:34:11,289 --> 00:34:08,179 hope truth does win out and if it does I 767 00:34:14,829 --> 00:34:11,299 can bet you that dr. Dean Radin will be 768 00:34:17,740 --> 00:34:14,839 at the tip of the spear the book again 769 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:17,750 is supernormal science 770 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:20,569 yoga and the evidence for extraordinary 771 00:34:25,780 --> 00:34:23,569 psychic abilities dr. rena has been a 772 00:34:27,250 --> 00:34:25,790 great pleasure having you on skeptic oh 773 00:34:30,579 --> 00:34:27,260 thanks again so much for joining me 774 00:34:32,589 --> 00:34:30,589 thank you Alex thanks again to dr. Dean 775 00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:32,599 Radin for joining me today on skeptic Oh 776 00:34:36,940 --> 00:34:34,730 a couple of questions on my tee up as a 777 00:34:39,879 --> 00:34:36,950 result of this interview and they both 778 00:34:42,730 --> 00:34:39,889 have to do with the idea of bringing psy 779 00:34:45,220 --> 00:34:42,740 to the lab something Dean Radin of 780 00:34:47,859 --> 00:34:45,230 course has done more to advance than 781 00:34:50,289 --> 00:34:47,869 just about anyone I can think of so the 782 00:34:52,090 --> 00:34:50,299 first question has to do with this idea 783 00:34:54,940 --> 00:34:52,100 of psy 784 00:34:57,610 --> 00:34:54,950 somewhat of a stepping stone along this 785 00:34:59,920 --> 00:34:57,620 continuum towards enlightenment the 786 00:35:02,080 --> 00:34:59,930 enlightenment experience that so many 787 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:02,090 people from so many different traditions 788 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:03,890 talk about you can hear me getting a 789 00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:05,330 little bit worked up there because it 790 00:35:12,250 --> 00:35:08,000 again just amazes me that we can just 791 00:35:14,650 --> 00:35:12,260 gloss over this experience that is so 792 00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:14,660 fundamentally profound across cultures 793 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:16,640 across times this thing we call 794 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:19,490 enlightenment and yet we're just going 795 00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:20,810 to pretend it doesn't really exist 796 00:35:26,650 --> 00:35:22,880 because it doesn't fit into our paradigm 797 00:35:28,810 --> 00:35:26,660 so the point is is dr. Raiden on the 798 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:28,820 right track in terms of bringing a 799 00:35:34,750 --> 00:35:31,970 scientific understanding of that process 800 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:34,760 by looking at sigh what are your 801 00:35:39,490 --> 00:35:37,250 thoughts on his approach to that that 802 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:39,500 would be question number one question 803 00:35:45,790 --> 00:35:42,530 two is related and that is what is the 804 00:35:47,740 --> 00:35:45,800 best way to bring Sai into the lab dr. 805 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:47,750 Raiden is pioneering a lot of this work 806 00:35:53,020 --> 00:35:50,450 of course but he's not the only one what 807 00:35:56,530 --> 00:35:53,030 research do you think is most promising 808 00:35:58,800 --> 00:35:56,540 in the area of demonstrating Sai 809 00:36:01,540 --> 00:35:58,810 phenomena under laboratory conditions 810 00:36:03,190 --> 00:36:01,550 should we be looking more towards people 811 00:36:06,130 --> 00:36:03,200 who've demonstrated these extraordinary 812 00:36:08,260 --> 00:36:06,140 abilities in our off-the-charts or 813 00:36:10,030 --> 00:36:08,270 should we look at how this phenomena 814 00:36:12,940 --> 00:36:10,040 manifests itself in the general 815 00:36:16,030 --> 00:36:12,950 population is telepathy the best path to 816 00:36:18,340 --> 00:36:16,040 pursue or is it precognition or 817 00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:18,350 telekinesis or something else would be 818 00:36:24,610 --> 00:36:20,480 interesting to hear what your thoughts 819 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:24,620 are on the path forward for Sai research 820 00:36:29,410 --> 00:36:27,170 in the lab so I'd love to hear from you 821 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:29,420 on those topics of course the place to 822 00:36:35,860 --> 00:36:31,610 do it is through the sceptical website 823 00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:35,870 at SK EPT Iko com I love when you 824 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:37,760 connect with us through the forum where 825 00:36:41,740 --> 00:36:39,290 a lot of people get together and 826 00:36:43,870 --> 00:36:41,750 exchange some interesting ideas you can 827 00:36:45,730 --> 00:36:43,880 also leave a comment directly there on 828 00:36:47,980 --> 00:36:45,740 the website and while you're there of 829 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:47,990 course you can subscribe to skeptic o 830 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:51,050 download any of our over 200 previous 831 00:36:57,250 --> 00:36:54,050 shows or connect with me via Facebook or 832 00:36:59,590 --> 00:36:57,260 an email I have a number of interesting 833 00:37:02,500 --> 00:36:59,600 shows coming up they're just piling up 834 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:02,510 here as summer rolls on for me I hope 835 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:04,370 you'll stay with me for all of that